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Germans...

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Germans...

Postby Gemlt » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:31 am

It looks like Germany's uber-conservative version of the Tea Party, Alternative for Germany, is opposing circumcision; even on religious grounds.
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Re: Germans...

Postby snoman » Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:13 am

I'd like to add a bit here as I live in Germany and can give a little more of a local flavour.

A couple of years ago a muslim couple in Cologne had their son circumcised by a non medically trained person from their community. The operation went badly and the child had to be taken to doctors who reported the whole incident. This led the local Cologne government 'banning' non medical circumcision. The press just blanketed this as a complete ban on circumcision but it was specifically 'non medical' circ.

This of course, made Germany look pretty stupid in light of their past history, but for some reason, only Chancellor Merkel seemed to see this. I was quite astounded at how people around me could not (or would not - Germans generally will never admit to being wrong) equate such a public stance with anti-semitism.

Since then we've seen the borders thrown open and a wave of mainly muslim background migrants being told they're welcome to move to Germany. Many of these people don't seem interested in integrating and the numbers are so vast that some smaller villages have found themselves outnumbered overnight by new arrivals. Naturally, this has caused a backlash against pretty much all things muslim from a very vocal part of the society. I hadn't heard about the circumcision issue but the political party mentioned in the article, the AfD, are doing a lot to make muslims appear barbaric. I can see that circumcision would be very good ammunition for them.

The strange thing is that circumcision is hardly unknown in this country. I was at a sauna yesterday with my wife, and by my reckoning, over 30% of the men there had been circumcised. Not a majority by any stretch, but certainly not unknown. I speak English with my wife too. Previously when we've been at a sauna I had a group of 20 something women commenting on my penis right behind me. I guess they thought because I was speaking English I couldn't understand them. They were all very positive about my cut state, and one said she wished her boyfriend had been done.
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Re: Germans...

Postby Gemlt » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:31 am

Thanks for the interesting insight. I had no idea that circumcision was that prevalent in Germany. That stat seems high for Europe. Have you had any experience in other countries where it's less common? Similarly, do you have any idea why so many Germans do become circumcised, and has this been a general trend over time, or a more recent fad?

There aren't any political parties in the States that voice a say on this (at least on a national scale). The Intactivist movement is around, obviously, but it hasn't seemed to gain much ground in Michigan, where I live. They protested outside of the capitol near where I live a couple of years ago, but it mostly just produced a mixture of amusement and contempt. Michigan still covers neonatal circumcision under Medicaid, and as a result has the second highest rate (85%) in the nation. The midwestern U.S. is actually the only region in the country where circ rates are rising rather than falling. I'm actually kind of envious of guys that live in nations where it's less common. The only time the topic comes up here, it's when people are poking fun at foreskins. The concept of having a fetish for cut guys is kind of silly, because the practice has been so commonplace.
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Re: Germans...

Postby snoman » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:26 pm

It's a good question that I don't really have an answer for yet. Germans are pretty up front about human sexuality and the body. Saunas for example, are all nude. If you go to the sauna, you're going to be naked while you're there and using the facilities. It's only a body. There are women only days (usually once a week) for those women who may feel uncomfortable being naked around naked men, but on other days, everyone just gets their gear off.

I've heard people discussing circumcision quite openly and not necessarily negatively. It's understood that it's something that's very common in the US, but I've also heard people talk about it for hygiene issues. I don't think it's generally offered as a pediatric/obstetric service in the hospital post birth though, so I guess if people want to have their sons done, they take them somewhere afterward and pay privately. I've read that the rates are quite high by German standards in areas where US military installations are found.

German tv used to have weekly sex magazine shows - hour long programmes that covered the range of topics in sexuality, and these were always quite explicit. While you always saw uncut guys, it would have been unusual to have week go by without also seeing at least one circumcised model. Maybe they did this to include the cut guys in the viewing audience but I don't think so - it's not the way Germans would think.

I've seen quite a few cut cocks in German porn. A lot of them seem to be adult or at least, post infant jobs, but a fair few also look like RIC's.

What I will reiterate though, because it makes me angry to read this whenever an anti gets in front of a keyboard, is that circumcision is far from unknown here. Put it this way. I grew up in Australia in the 80' s/90's with my foreskin. I lost that in my mid 20's. When I'm in the gym or at the sauna here, I feel a lot less unusual/strange/weird/out of the ordinary, than I ever did with my foreskin in Australia.

If the radical right political parties keep presenting it as islamic barbarity, rates may decrease, but reading on German forums, circumcision definitely has a lot of supporters.
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Re: Germans...

Postby Deadheart » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:29 pm

Fascinating perspective, thanks for sharing. In my time spent in Europe I noticed general attitudes towards circumcision, at least among women, is not negative at all. I've heard the same thing, "I wish more guys had it done". Sexually active women view circumcision as a positive, or at the very least ambivalent. Negative sentiments are always expressed by men, or those anti-Semitic. In Europe it is common enough for people to be vocal about Jews, especially older generations. Odd.
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Re: Germans...

Postby snoman » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:27 am

Deadheart - you're quite right as far as i can say. Whenever the topic has come up, the men will often have a knee jerk negative reaction, and the women are much more positive or neutral about the whole thing.
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Re: Germans...

Postby jack » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:06 pm

I really enjoyed this topic, but never found time lately to reply.

I live in the UK and while circumcision rates are significantly lower than in Germany, you still see the occasional cut guy at the gym. I would too say that it isn't looked down upon at all here. It is the exact same case where women are either neutral or slightly for, but men are reluctant to do it just for cosmetic reasons. Routine circumcision outside of religious groups is also almost non-existant.

That being said, I always had a secret wish that circumcision would somehow pick up in Europe and get to somewhere around maybe 30-40%. We'd still be in the minority, but it would certainly spice up things a little and give women (and men haha) a wider variety of penis types to enjoy.

It is after all just a cosmetic procedure with some health benefits and low risks and no proven downsides, so it's sad that some people make horrific claims about it. I imagine almost any uncut guy has at some point thought about it. Making it more easily accessible and removing most of the stigma associated with it would certainly enable more guys and their partners to enjoy the pleasure of a circumcised penis.
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Re: Germans...

Postby Deadheart » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:50 am

I agree with what you said Jack. Also to add foreign women are definitely not opposed to circumcised dicks due to "cultural" reasons like many would have you falsely believe. If anything I truly believe all women do prefer the look of circumcised better than one with foreskin, which is why you see so much anger from foreign men when this issue gets brought up. At the end of the day, it will always be a parents choice and never will be banned. Shame that some countries don't make it easily accessible for new parents. That is probably the biggest factor in why rates are low, just offer it in the hospitals and watch the numbers rise towards North America stats.
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Re: Germans...

Postby snoman » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:16 am

Interestingly enough, I read on a German forum recently a post from a mother who was worried that her son was feeling left out because he was the only uncircumcised boy amongst his group of friends.

Now - before we go getting too excited, it's not reflecting a surprising jump in circ rates over this way! She was writing from Berlin and her son's playmates were all (or mostly) muslim. I still found it interesting that, in a place like Germany, a little boy can grow up and feel as though he's odd because he has a foreskin!
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Re: Germans...

Postby jack » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:07 am

Intersting point Deadheart. I agree that it should be made readily available to anyone wanting it. However, I doubt that its unavailabilty to parents is what is holding it back. Those who do practice it (religiously or culturaly) have it done privately anyway and those who are neutral about it would most likely not do it even if it was offered as an option at birth. That being said, it seems that even in Europe the proportion of women who prefer circumcised is greater than the proportion of those who prefer intact (even though the overwhelming majority is neutral). So, what I am hoping is that young men would be less discouraged from having it done as a form of a cosmetic procedure (just as some women have labiaplasties or people get piercings and tatoos). I went to a high school close to London and some of my friends were circumcised (Turkish, Syrians), while we also had a few extremly attractive Turkish girls. I remeber all us uncut guys looked up to circumcision as an amazing thing that made your penis super neat and we were really intrigued by it. One of my friens even wanted to have it done because he was dating one of the Turkish girls. And it isn't only about doing it to please a girl from a different culture. I also have a good British female friend who had cut partners and she agreed that being circumcised would be a plus. So while parents would be unlikely to endorse it, I see no harm in encouraging young men to have it as a cosmetic procedure to make them stand out. It's a shame that it is advertised as mutilation whereas women are free to get labiaplasties and breast surgeries without being criticised for it. That's my main issue with the current situation.

As for feeling uncomfortable not being cut in a mostly cut group, I wonder if the reverse also happens. Myself I have always felt proud to have my now circumcised penis seen by mostly uncut guys either in locker rooms or at the nude beach.

For context, I was circumcised in my early 20s due to a chronic skin condition I developed at that time called Lichen Sclerosus. While it was manageable with alternative treatments, I found it a good enough reason to finally have my foreskin removed and permanently cure my condition.
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